Ellen Ratner and Pamela Segall currently co-star with Laurel Green and Carol Ann Susi in Justin Tanner's Heartbreak Help at Hollywood's Cast Theatre, where the four actresses originated their roles in 1996.
Ratner, a New York native who attended the High School of Performing Arts, was originally a standup comic. In 1986, she co-wrote the one-woman show, Personality, which she starred in and was produced and developed by the Women's Project through the American Place Theatre in New York. The following year, the Odyssey Theatre brought Ratner and Personality to Los Angeles, where the show ran for three successful years. Soon after, Tanner began casting her in his plays Bitter Women, Pot Mom, Happy Time Xmas, and Coyote Woman.
If you could hear Pamela Segall, you'd recognize her as the raspy-voiced Bobby on the animated series King of the Hill. She's now a veteran of television animation, having worked on Pepper Ann, Spawn, 101 Dalmatians: The Series, Jumanji, Jungle Cubs, Quack Pack, Rugrats, and the upcoming Fox kids' show Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot. Her on-screen credits include the series The Red Foxx Show and The Facts of Life, the TV movie Breast Men, and the films Men, Plump Fiction, Bed of Roses, Say Anything, and Grease 2.
Pamela Segall: You have made a life for yourself in theatre in L.A. Most people think that doesn't exist.
Ellen Ratner: I've been very lucky. The two theatres that I've been associated with are the Cast and the Odyssey, which is the theatre that gave me my start out here. And the Cast is like a family since I walked in that day for Bitter Women in 1988. I had a small role in that. After that, Justin was one of those people you meet out here who says, "I love you and I'm going to write you a play," and you go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And he did. And every day 15 or 30 pages kept coming into my hands and we kept reading it and reading it. That was Pot Mom. French Stewart was my son and Laurel Green and Dana Schwartz were my daughters. It was just one of those lovely things that happens in your life where you meet someone like Justin. And it was a great play. It was a gift.
Pamela: I was at the Cast in 1988, too. It was a play [not written by Tanner] called June 8, 1968.
Back Stage West: Is that how you met Justin?
Pamela: No. Actually, I met Justin because I did a reading of a play written by Steven Leigh Morris, who is now theatre editor for L.A. Weekly. And it was this play called Wet Snow, and it was me and French and this other girl, whose name I can't remember, and Justin saw me in that.
BSW: Ellen, what do you do when you're not working in the theatre?
Ellen: I do television [Seinfeld, L.A. Law, The Days and Nights of Molly Dodd]. I was on The Nanny, playing Fran Drescher's sister. I'm in movies. I'm a working actor. I let go of my day job 12 years ago and I've never looked back. I'm not a celebrity but I do make a living.
Pamela: People know who you are.
Ellen: Yeah. People know who I am through my theatre work more than my television, probably. But I have my fans. That's all you can hope for, really.
BSW: What advice would you offer young actors, many of whom only have their sights on stardom?
Ellen: Work in theatre. Get your chops. I was on a set yesterday for a commercial and this very nice-looking young actress, who just moved out from New York, asked me, "How do you get an agent out here?" That's always the big thing when you first come out here. The way it happened for me-and I just told her what my experience was-I was in a play. It got reviewed by Sylvie Drake in The L.A. Times. Everybody wants to know who you are. You make some phone calls, send out some flyers, and boom. They see your work. If they're interested, it happens.
Then [the young actress] said, "Well, I do mailings." I said, "Yeah, and do you get any response?" She said, "No." Well, that ain't the way. It's through friends. If you have a friend who has representation, ask her, "Hey, would your agent want to meet me?" That's the way. Or else you're just one of those really lucky people that gets picked off the street if you're exceptionally beautiful.
Pamela: That's the big factor in things: luck. There are so many talented people in this town who are dying to work and they can't get a break. They can't get an agent.
Work Matters
Ellen: It's the work that matters. Yes, of course I like a full bank account; it makes life a little easier and more fun. But, for example, this September and October I'm going to go away for a month and a half to do a Neil Simon play, Laughter on the 23rd Floor, up in Sacramento, and it's directed by a friend of mine, Ron Orbach, who opened the play on Broadway. And it means everything to me. I love the role. The money is OK, but my agent is up in arms. He's saying, "How could you leave? It's guest-spot time! It's TV time!" But what am I going to do? Sit around waiting for that? What if it doesn't happen? I said to my agent, "Don't call me in Sacramento and tell me what I'm missing. I'll be back Oct. 17. I'll take care of it then." I know I'm going to be happy as a clam up in Sacramento.
Pamela: A lot of people put their lives on hold for years and years because they think that they might get a guest spot on Blossom or Jake and the Fatman or something. It's horrible to me that these actors aren't living their lives and aren't taking the experiences that they can get. They're taking loans out so they can be in a showcase. There are so many people out there who will take your money to put you in some kind of workshop or class, and a lot of these people are just taking your money and they're not giving you anything! I find that very frightening.
Ellen: I also think that young actors today see the early success of people who have no experience. Like the big thing on these talk shows is they invite these young actors to be guests on the show and they're really good-looking and they sit down and Regis will ask, "So, what's your acting training?" "I never acted in my life before this," and everyone goes, "Oh! Isn't that wonderful!" And people like you and me are sitting there going, "That's good?" I don't think that's so good. It shows.
Voice Lessons
BSW: How did it happen that you got into voiceover, Pam?
Pamela: It was suggested eight years ago by the man who is still my agent. He heard my voice in something and he wanted to meet with me and he signed me. The first audition I did in the booth at the agency was to play a little boy in a 7-11 commercial. I said, "I don't understand what you mean." He said, "Just talk," and I ended up getting that campaign and working for a long time with this producer, Jim Kirby. After that, I'd get voiceover jobs every once in a while and I'd see girls my age doing animation and I thought, I'd love to get that job. I was so fascinated by the fact that these people had a steady voiceover job that they went to.
Ellen: And you don't have to dress for it. You could have a bad hair day and it doesn't matter.
Pamela: I just started getting different voiceover jobs and different directors got to know me and wanted to work with me, the way Justin is with you and Laurel. A director gets hired to direct a series and he brings in the actors that he wants to work with. That's kind of how the whole things works.
When people have frustration and they say, "I want to get into voiceover, but it's so cliquey," I agree. It is and I can imagine how impenetrable it must seem. But honestly, it's as simple as getting yourself into a voiceover workshop, which I can't recommend more. Most of the teachers who are running these workshops are reputable people who are working as voiceover actors and/or voiceover directors, and they remember the students from their workshops who make an impression on them.
Once you do a workshop, get a demo tape together. You need a voiceover demo. I'm so glad I'm saying this, because everybody asks me this all the time. A demo is as important as having an 8x10 for an actor. You can't be asked to come into a room and be seen unless they have a picture of you, and if you're not satisfied with the picture of you, they won't be. So you make a good tape. It's like a one-minute tape and it costs about $400 or $500. From then on, you keep plugging away and you send your tape in to different agents and you get known.
I'm doing a show now in which a guy who was in my friend's workshop is now the star of the show with me. I'm doing another show where the woman who was in another workshop is one of the stars of the show. These workshops really make a difference.
Back to One
BSW: Do you ever get concerned about your future and what your next job is going to be?
Ellen: Every day. I think it happens to an actor on my level or even an actor like Susan Sarandon. I saw her on The Actor's Studio and the host James Lipton asked, "What do you think about women in film today?" She looks out to the young audience, "Well, you're going to be able to tell me and when you do get there, hire me." Now, maybe that is an exaggeration, but I think that anxiety does crop up all the time with actors. You're only as good as your last job.
Pamela: It's always back to one.
Ellen: It's always back to one. You don't know when your next job is coming.
Pamela: I did this press day yesterday for all the television critics and my last interview was for CNN. I was promoting King of the Hill, because we're almost done recording our fourth season. So the CNN reporter looked at me and said, "So, now that you have really made it and found a job for yourself on a successful show like King of the Hill, what are you doing for yourself financially?" I was like, "Whoa!"
Ellen: She probably wanted to know the name of your money manager.
Pamela: I thought it was really interesting and I didn't take offense at it. I used it as an opportunity to say that a lot of actors and artists are not prepared for a financial windfall if it comes. And they blow it. We are not prepared for the business end of things. We say, "I'm a creative person. I can't mess with those numbers. I can't mess with that stuff." I've been working since I was 12 and I had a business manager when I was 14. I let other people take care of my finances for years, until a little less than five years ago when I said, "What am I doing? I am so broke; I can't pay my rent!" I didn't even know what an interest rate on a credit card was. I only knew that I had a lot of them and they were very high.
And so I took charge of my finances and said, "I'm taking back all my money and I'm taking charge of this," and everything was a mess. I was screwed. I went to this SAG credit union. I got a Visa card from them with a $5,000 advance and I split it off to pay off different cards, and it helped me because it had such a low interest rate. I was in bad trouble at the time.
Now, my husband and I say to each other, "We are trying to establish our future for ourselves." The autonomy that I have right now comes from animation and that's it. I have to be smart about it because I have a daughter.
Ellen: A lot of people get on a series, and if the series goes for two years, they make a lot of money. I live in the Hollywood Hills and I see actors come from New York and move into my neighborhood. They're good-looking, get a series, va-voom: "I'm going to go buy a house." And I go, "Ooh, that's bad. I would wait till the fifth season and when you go into syndication, then buy that house."
Trust Your Instincts
Ellen: When you're starting to go on auditions, you don't immediately trust your instincts. But then as time goes on, you have to. You have to make choices. Because that's all it's about as soon as you get in there.
Pamela: That is absolutely what it's about. It's about your choices. It's funny when you go to an audition and you're sitting in the lobby and the door is thin and you hear another actor's audition. I live for that.
Ellen: Me, too.
Pamela: It is so good for you because you are the person who's on the side of the door going, "Jesus, I'm better than that!"
Ellen: Doesn't it feel good?
Pamela: And you're sitting there going, "What am I worried about? Whether I take a pause here or this or that?" You realize it's not about you.
Ellen: It gives you a lot of confidence. That's only happened a few times to me and the first time it happened to me I learned a great lesson. I'm sitting there insecurely going, "Well, she looks more like this role than I do." Then I heard her and I went, "Oh, man! I'm going to walk away with this one!"
Pamela: And she got the part!
Ellen: Right!
Pamela: You know what? You walk into a room and casting directors make the shift. You know that they're looking at you and thinking, She is not right for the part.
Ellen: You can feel it.
Pamela: It is so rare that there is something in your reading that they can say, "You know what? This might be an interesting way to go," and there are a few people who do that. But listen, some of my best experiences I didn't get the job. I worked through something for myself. BSW