DC Universe fans first met Colin Farrell’s villainous Oz Cobb (aka the Penguin) in Matt Reeves’ 2022 film “The Batman.” Now, the character is headlining his own Max limited series alongside Cristin Milioti as crime boss Sofia Falcone.
When Emmy-winning casting director Cindy Tolan, who also put together the ensemble of “The Batman,” began working on “The Penguin,” she knew she needed someone to help her fill out the series’ sprawling world. Enter Suzanne Ryan, who cast scores of performers on NBC’s “Law & Order” for nearly two decades.
Here, the two break down how they populated Gotham’s seedy underbelly and offer advice for actors.
“The Penguin” has been a hit with both critics and viewers. What has it been like to see that kind of response?
Cindy Tolan: My entire life, I’ve always wanted to work on these types of pieces—certainly the movie. And when I have the opportunity to fulfill that, it’s exquisite and extraordinary, and to be able to give these incredible actors an opportunity to shine in a way that they wouldn’t normally. That’s a testament to Max, [creator] Lauren LeFranc, and [executive producers] Matt Reeves and Dylan Clark. You’re allowed to actually cast amazing actors who you may not already know. That is a dream.
Suzanne Ryan: I’ve gotten a lot of responses from people who say to me, “This is not usually the kind of thing that I watch, but I’m really enjoying this.” I think that speaks to the writing and the level of talent we were able to bring in. It’s not just costumes and people blowing up; it’s much more than that. I think it’s brought in an audience that maybe, up to this point, would have thought, Maybe this is not right for me. But they’re really digging it, which is great.
How ‘The Penguin’ Production Designer Kalina Ivanov Turned New York Into Gotham What was it like to build a cast around a star of Farrell’s caliber?
Cindy Tolan: If you have Colin as a centerpiece, everyone will want to work with him. It makes it so much easier, because you don’t always have the tools in your toolbox to be able to say, “Here’s a million dollars. Will you come and work on this?” There’s got to be other reasons, and I think one of them is that Colin Farrell is an amazing actor magnet. People want to work with him because he’s so talented—and also because he is a good human.
On “Late Night With Seth Meyers,” Cristin Milioti said she’d always wanted to play a Batman villain, but she was worried that her screen test didn’t go well. Do you often see a disconnect between how actors think an audition went and your response as CDs?
CT: The stakes are so high; and if you want it badly, inevitably, you’re like, “I don’t know how that went. I hope I got it, but I’m stressed about it.” I think it’s no different from when I interviewed for “The Batman.” I really wanted it, and I was like, “Oh, well. I have no idea [if I got it], but I did my best.”
Suzanne Ryan: Maybe actors actually think they did well, but they’re trying to preserve their own sanity by saying, “Oh, I think I fucked it up.” When you’re working on projects [as a CD], sometimes you see multiple auditions that are great. Ultimately, unfortunately, you have to pick one person.
CT: I think it depends on which version of a story the director wants to tell. With Cristin Milioti, I had an instinct in my bones. When I was meeting with [“The Penguin” creator] Lauren LeFranc for the first time, I was like, “Who do you think would be good for Sofia?” I just knew [I wanted it to be] Cristin; I knew her work from [the Broadway musical] “Once” and lots of other things. To me, it’s not a big leap because you can see the depth of what this person is capable of doing, and you can then transcend that into Sofia. If I am confident that someone is right for a role, my faith in them is not shaken.
Ever since the pandemic, auditions are frequently being conducted remotely over video chat. Has that process evolved in the past four years, and what are the pros and cons?
SR: I think people have gotten better at it as we’ve all learned to work with [virtual auditions]. I think we’ve all learned how to work with the camera and be more comfortable. So it’s getting better and better, and there are definitely pros and cons—the big pro being we can see more people over a larger geographic area and give opportunities to people who may not have gotten a shot [before now], which is wonderful.
The negative is, of course, that there is always something special and organic about seeing people in person. I think across the board, casting directors and actors are making it work. It’s not going to go back to the way it was, and I think we’re all doing a fairly good job.
Cindy, you worked on “The Batman” before the pandemic. What was the difference in the casting process for “The Penguin”?
CT: I know that [CD] Lucy Bevan cast all of the day players and the smaller roles for “The Batman.” She was brought in after we had cast the leads—and getting those pieces in place, most of that was offers. But the smaller roles were cast in person.
But as Suzanne says, we’re not dictating the process; so we’re on board with what it is. I think it’s about whatever you can do to make the actor feel comfortable and seen and supported. Hopefully, we have found a way to make that happen. Obviously in-person is great, but it’s limited. It’s about how many people you can see in a day. [If we cast in person for “The Penguin,”] it would all have to be New York local hires.
When you’re casting for a major franchise project like “The Penguin,” do actors get real sides or dummy sides?
SR: Mostly dummy sides. There’s a lot of name confusion, usually, on both their part and our part. But folks have gotten used to this way of working because there is a lot of secrecy surrounding projects. I find that, largely, people are good sports about it. They jump in and go, I’m going to try to make the best of this and try to figure it out. It also helps to know that everybody’s in the same boat; nobody else knows any more than you do.
CT: Sometimes, the dummy side scenes may be longer than what the role really requires. Then, you have to convey to the actor and the agent: “It’s a good part. It may not be as large as the scene is reflecting, but it is integral.” That gets a little tricky because no one can read the script.
“The Penguin” involves lots of different groups within Gotham, from members of organized crime families to inmates at Arkham Asylum. Was it challenging to cast actors for the latter?
SR: It’s challenging, but in the best possible way. Everybody loves to play those parts. Everybody wants to get a hand in that and show their way of doing it. There are a lot of opinions because there are a lot of different ways [in]. That’s kind of the fun of it: You get to explore a wide area and lots of different ways to play [those roles]. So it’s challenging, yes, but it’s also why we’re all in the game.
CT: I also think what is challenging is to match the tone. It’s interesting because we had different directors [on different episodes]; we were the constant. We would have to match the tone and figure out which performers would be able to do it with different directors. That was interesting and fun.
Do you have any advice for actors when it comes to calming their nerves?
SR: Nobody wants you to be good as much as we do. Everyone in that room is pulling for you. Everyone on that set is pulling for you. You should keep that in mind.
CT: When you do get the job and you’re on set—because that’s where I think you get nervous, especially if you’re not as experienced—be professional, show up, and do what is asked of you. Don’t ask too many questions. I’ve observed actors being like, “OK, where’s my mark? Where’s the camera? What’s the shot?” Less is more in those situations. Talk to your friends about what it is like to be on set. Actors have such a great community, so talk to your colleagues about it. That’s what we do, and I would hope that’s what actors do, too.
What was it like for the two of you to work together for the time on a project of this scale?
CT: There are great people who work with us; [my casting associates,] Nicholas Petrovich and Sahtia Rivers, are incredible. But it was just the three of us, and it was an enormous project. We have our own community [as CDs]; we know each other. I just said to everybody, “I need somebody to come on and do this with me, and there is only one person for me, and it’s Suzanne Ryan; she is like a casting whisperer because she worked on ‘Law & Order’ for all those years.’ ” Knowing how to work within the system, knowing how many day players we were going to have, knowing how to make all of those deals and negotiate and read those crazy “day out of days”—she’s a rock; she’s an amazing person.
SR: I’m going to jump in here and say our lovefest therapy thing: Cindy’s amazing, and this is an amazing group of people—Nicholas, Sahtia. But Cindy is a powerhouse. Even though I’ve been doing this for some time, I felt like I was learning something every day, and I was getting better. That is a great place to be—to work with people who are supportive, smart, fast, thorough, talented, open-minded, creative, and collaborative. It was an amazing experience from start to finish. One of the best joys of this career is having a hand in getting people work and helping them further their careers and dreams. It was fun to be able to do that with this group and Cindy.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.
This story originally appeared in the Nov. 14 issue of Backstage Magazine.